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Old 11-25-2011, 02:20 AM
JRRayder JRRayder is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 418

Might I suggest that you put some templar knights and knights into your attack force to stiffen your attack.
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Old 11-25-2011, 05:15 PM
KingArther KingArther is offline
Squire (Level 1)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Default Immortal Rebels

Hi JRRayder,

Earlier you wrote...

"The general rule is that you should attack and destroy the rebels if at all possible because when you attack multiple times you build up the experience of the rebels and therefore make them MUCH harder to kill."

In you last reply, you wrote...
"Might I suggest that you put some templar knights and knights into your attack force to stiffen your attack."

I am now watching a force of over 1400 troops with elite archers and pikemen supported by Heavy and Light Cavalry get massacred by just 100 rebels, 100 Immortal Rebels.

Whether or not this is a "critical bug", it is definately something I suggest you address.

Here is my experience as a new player....

After I got my city, I noticed the remnance of other player's cities nearby. There is one large city to my North with 70 honor ("large" being a relative term).

I read up on what it takes to expand beyond a single city. Obviously, the key to this is getting an heir with enough experienced to be "crowned".

I get friendly little pop-ups suggesting I can get additional resources by raiding nearby rebel cities. The pop-ups also suggest that I should attack rebels in order to increase troop experience.

With this encouragement, I built up an army by maxing out what my granary can supply (I had focused on food supply from the beginning).

Not, quality troops, but a lot of them. I attacked to the West. I got a report back that even though I outnumbered the rebels nearly five to one, they still killed half my troops and I killed none of theirs. Not knowing any better, I thought the battle was over and I had to move my troops back.

I get better quality troops this time including elite archers. I attacked to the North. The results were similar, except this time I actually killed a couple. I noticed the experience points were added to the units which had killed. Again, I thought the battle was over, but I left the troops where they were while I thought about what to do next, The next thing I know, there is an updated report indicating I had won and my troops were back home.

I had "won" something like 4 iron, 5 stone and 4 food. The cost was nearly half my troops, but the half that survived now had experience. The pop-up suggesting this is a way to get additional resources is a cruel joke.

There is a saying that goes something like "you need to lose an army in order to get an army". The idea is it tales lots of experience and, therefore, lots of casualities in order to get an effective fighting force.

Ok, so I pour more and better troops into attacking to the North. The next two battels are Pyrrhic "victories" just as horrible as the first. I wouldn't have minded if the troops continued to gain experience points. But no, it didn't work. The veteran troops died just as easily as the fresh recruits. I wasn't gaining experience.

Maybe a fresh start to the East?

The East was just as bad as the other two. At least the North had fewer. Surely I could overwhelm them with numbers. My first heir was ready, time to try.

WTF? It looks like with an heir attached, I can't get even a Pyrrhic Victory.

This may explain why the person running the city to the North of me has given up on this game. He probably got frustrated trying to do what I am trying to do and has strengthened the rebels beyond our capability to beat them with low experience troops.

In the time it took to type this, I have lost my army and my heir.

The battle started out with me killing 22 of the 122 rebels. Apparently, the 22 were the less experienced ones. Because the last 100 held out until the end when I killed 4 of them.

By this time tomorrow, I will have a bigger and better army led by another heir and I will try again.

If I am lucky, maybe I can kill four more of the Immortal Rebels.

My suggestions in order of preferrence
1. Rebels do not gain experience. They reset to a set strength after every battle.

2. Kill zero experience troops first to allow for building up armies.

3. Adjust combat result calculator to take into account overwhelming numbers.

4. Either increase the reward for successful raids or get rid of the resource rewards altogether. The pop-up suggestions that raiding could be profitable is misleading at best.

P.S. I got a "Call to Arms" acheivement. Did I get that because I died to a man? Bug?

Last edited by KingArther; 11-25-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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Old 11-25-2011, 10:52 PM
JRRayder JRRayder is offline
Game Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 418

Thanks for your input!

Yep the combat system is definitely under review. Your experience is an unfortunate 1 in 20 type situation and the rebels literally become "immortal". All of us have run into the rebels that refused to die.

Your observation about the "hints" is also pretty much spot on - some of the hints are right on the money - others are useless or ill-advised. It was brought up as a game "concept" and then was left as-is. It needs to be edited to make it more helpful and accurate.

And lastly - "Call to Arms" is an award based on the number of troops you have recruited. You will likely soon be awarded the "Un-bereivable" award too for losing troops :-(

The two main issues that are causing game play problems at the moment are the combat system and the "instant" trade issue. With those two finished off - DAW will be a very stable and playable game with sufficient yet beatable challenges ;-)

Hope this helps.

Regards, JR
Game Moderator
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Old 11-26-2011, 12:24 AM
KingArther KingArther is offline
Squire (Level 1)
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 6
Default Immortal Rebels

Thank you again for your reply.

I will take it at face value that my situation is unusual. However, I still think it is a big mistake to give experience points to non-player troops. This might work for the veteran players who understand the situation and have been playing since the beginning. To players showing up in the middle of a game in progress, it compounds the luck of the draw. It causes confusion and much frustration. A new player has to not only worry about player-owned cities, he/she has to also think about which rebels to attack. However, chances are a new player won’t even understand that. I didn’t.

Having learned what I have learned, I think my best bet is to try to pick a rebel city that hasn't been attacked before. Even if the rebels are hours away from my capital it is better to do that than to waste my time with the nearby rebels I strongly suspect have been strengthened by previous failed attacks.

My other alternative is to request someone deal with these troublesome rebels thus resetting the city for me by killing them all. In other words, rely on an alliance (formally or informally). I don't mind getting into an alliance. I presumed I would want to eventually. However, I want to stand on my own two feet first.

I hope this new player perspective is being helpful. I do appreciate the confirmation of my suspicions thus reducing my frustration of continually hitting my head against a wall.

You are welcome to play with the rebels at grid X:33, Y:197. Last count is 96 with high experience. I will no longer be attacking them. I'm taking my army on the road in search of more fertile pastures.

It's anyone's guess where I will end up.

My game design suggestion:
Again, the rebels should not gain experience. At least not from what other players do. I still suggest the rebels should be reset after every battle. If there is a worry this will make it too easy to crown heirs, keep track per player and allow a city to be used only once for giving experience to an heir.

Edited for Update: I have found that attacking remote rebel cities are MUCH easier. However, I won't be able to tell any more since I now have the best troops types with an heir that is gaining XP. So things are good for me. However, I am wondering what the lower rank troops are good for. Using them as cannon fodder helps the enemy build up XP.

Last edited by KingArther; 11-27-2011 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Update
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